Dispense MagazineLast week, Pennsylvania Governor Tom Wolf announced that he and his Lt. Governor are firmly in favor of the legalization of cannabis for adult use.
Lt. Governor John Fetterman is a loud voice for legalization, a voice he earned by listening to over 10,000 people on his 67-county tour of the commonwealth. But how does he feel about MEDICAL cannabis? Over 200,000 patients have already signed up and almost 1,200 physicians are signing recommendations. What happens to this program after adult-use becomes legal?
I’m your host Sven Hosford. In this episode of the Dispense Magazine podcast, we’ll hear directly from the Lt. Governor – passionate, emphatic – dare I say unfettered – here’s my conversation with Pennsylvania Lt. Gov John Fetterman.
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Transcription
DM:
What I mainly want to talk about is what happens to our medical program if and when adult use becomes legal.
JF:
I heard from people in all 67 counties that our medical program is love universally. If there was one significant issue that kept coming up over and over and over again, is the expense. And it's not the expense per say, it’s the fact that it's not covered by insurance. It's not covered by insurance because of another universal theme that emerged - and that is that it’s a schedule one substance, which, of course means that it has no medical value, which of course, is ridiculous. So the medical program, I can't imagine, would be in any jeopardy or danger. In fact, everybody wants to preserve two separate systems - the medical and the recreational aspect because it has very specific and important uses. Medically, my wife is a cardholder, so this idea that it would necessarily change anything - I don't think it's something that anyone would need to be concerned of.
DM:
Well, I think some of the concern comes from watching what's happened in other states. I haven't been to California recently, but I understand that the medical program is virtually non existent now with the popularity of the adult use.
JF:
I don't traffic in anecdotes. I mean, it's research that would be conducted if we get to the point where we go recreationally, legally and we created a superb medical program in Pennsylvania. If the day comes, I believe the Legislature would craft a superior recreational program as well, too. So no one wants to see it go away. These anecdotes that just live on social media - they're just not true, and concerns are premature and just aren’t backed up by evidence.
DM:
Are you surprised by the popularity of the medical program?
JF:
Not at all. But it certainly has done a great deal to change the hearts and minds of those individuals that previously would have thought marijuana is a more dangerous substance or it was just for stoners or whatever. Now, Pennsylvania is in a place where those that support marijuana prohibition, recreationally is true minority viewpoint, and it used to be the stereotype was it's just a bunch of stoners that want this and it's like, no, that's not it. It’s people from across all socioeconomic classes and ethnic groups - everybody sees this as a net positive. Medical marijuana went from a controversial proposition to a universally loved proposition in what, two years?
DM:
Yeah, less than two years. But it seems like you've been in office forever, but you actually only took office in January of this year.
JF:
Yeah, I’ve been Lieutenant Governor since January 15. So, in getting out there and talking to people in all of these counties that many people have never even been to, or heard of in some cases, it's a very distinct picture of what people think about in Pennsylvania. Some folks say, ‘Oh, we'll put it on a ballot.’ It's like, well, that's not constitutional in Pennsylvania. So, the next best thing is to go out and do what we did.
DM:
What do you think of the chances of adult use being passed this year?
JF:
Well, I mean, it's always a challenging environment because people need to remember this is a bipartisan solution. Anything in Pennsylvania has to have bipartisan sign on. It was medical cannabis and it would be the same with Recreational. The public rhetoric often doesn't match up with private. It’s something that Governor Wolf and I believe in strongly. It's a constructive conversation to have because a lot did emerge that is super majority stuff, and that is decriminalization, that is expungement that is, removing this ridiculous classification as a schedule one substance.
DM:
There’s only so much you can do at the state level and it seems like you're doing a great job with the social aspects with getting pardons for people.
JF:
Yeah, and pardons - It is a process that exists, but with some refinement, some tweaking some other changes, we can aggregate and expedite these applications, and it's expungement for pardons, which isn’t, of course, sufficient. The governor and I would also love to see legislation, but in the absence of that, or until that occurs, we have this mechanism and we plan on utilizing it.
DM:
Is there anything possibly built into getting some of these people out of prisons and allowing them to work within the industry?
JF:
Yeah, apply. Apply for a pardon. That's the answer - applying for the pardon
DM:
Okay. Any thoughts on protecting the medical program, such as it is?
JF:
I think that, again, people are entitled to their own concerns, but I know there's a great deal of pride on the Republican side for their medical program. It was an example of ‘they stepped outside their comfort zone,’ and they did the right thing, and it's been a tremendous success. No one wants to dismantle that. I didn’t meet anyone, really, that was like, ‘Oh, lay it all down and just make it a cannabis free-for-all.’ No one said that. This other ridiculous notion that legal implies or means harmless. Well, of course, it has an effect if it didn't have an affect, people would smoke their lawn clippings. It belongs in a basket of goods, like alcohol and tobacco. Then the tax is regulated and distribution is controlled. So, the same holds true. But medically, it's like you have Aspirin or Tylenol or Advil or whatever, and then you also have prescriptions. It's not like, ‘Oh, whoa, you know if this goes recreational, we won't need medical anymore. Like why? What do you know? How do you know? It's an evolving space. We're figuring it out after it beating a prohibition of this substance, and guess what? CBD became legal, and did the world spin off its axis? You know? Did the medical program shit the bed? No, none of this happens. So, everyone just needs to understand that the Pennsylvania Republican Legislature is very thoughtful body where there is partisan disagreement, but everyone loves the medical program. No one wants to dismantle the medical program. We do want to make the medical program more efficient. We do want to make being processed more affordable for Pennsylvanians and streamline the schedule one classification. That's why the governor and I called on our congressional delegation to remove that classification. I suspect if there's a change in administration that would naturally occur.
DM:
Well, you give great hope for those of us that worked very hard to help get this system in place and support this system, so I applaud your good work.
JF:
It's true credit. My wife's a cardholder. I can tell you it's provided significant benefit in her life. I'm telling you, if any Pennsylvania voter is concerned, the medical program, it has been widely and well-received, even in the most red counties - even among folks that you wouldn't normally think it would be. The preamble was, ‘Well, you know, I don't support it recreationally, but medically, that's different.’ So, it’s like, even those that aren't ready for it recreationally, for whatever reason, love it medically and Pennsylvania’s medical program patients and others don't have anything that I can see or have heard to warrant those fears as they might see in their mind. I'm not worried about another state's experience because it's not like this is going to happen overnight. It would be a process of finding out best practices - what has worked, what hasn’t - Because I know with good reason, our Republican colleagues that helped make this a reality take a lot of pride in the medical program, justifiably and understandably so, and no one's clamoring to get away with it.
DM:
Well, Pennsylvania, I think, did a remarkable job - the legislators and the regulators - did a remarkable job of doing what has worked well in other states and not repeating the mistakes of other states.
JF:
Exactly. If somebody says, ‘Well, what about California? Well, we'll learn from California. We'll learn from Colorado. Will learn from ‘fill in the blank,’ because it's going to be, if it does happen, it will be a very deliberate process. Let me tell you, recreational cannabis is already happening right now in Pennsylvania on the black market, so why wouldn't we want it growing in Pennsylvania Farms, creating Pennsylvania jobs, and creating Pennsylvania tax revenue, and have it work hand in glove with our medical program?
DM:
It seems logical to me.
JF:
Only the extreme fringe has ever called for like a cannabis free-for-all. No one is collectively calling for that. This is going to have to be a bill that gets through the Legislature and certainly our friends, the ones that aren't there with this on recreational yet, aren’t going to say, ‘You know what? Let's just open the floodgates and destroy the nation's best medical cannabis program. It’s not gonna happen. We all want to have a constructive bipartisan conversation on this, and I'm grateful that for the governor's leadership and everyone loves our medical cannabis program.
DM:
Well, that you're speaking truth right there, my friend. Everyone does love our program. We’ve got quadruple the number of patients of Illinois, which is a state about the same size and we did that in less than a year. While they’re still at 4 or 5 years now and counting.
JF:
I heard it called the Gold Standard nationwide. Pennsylvanians should take a lot of pride in that. The one big concern that I had was people being able to afford it. It's like, ‘My God, I need this.’ And I agree with them. I know how much it costs, because my wife was a cardholder, and that is a schedule one classification issue. If we made it as affordable as these terrible pain pills, that would change the game overnight. And that's part of what the governor has called for, is changing that classification.
DM:
Well, we applaud your work and I think you've got a very clear vision of how good our program is and I applaud you for that as well.
JF:
The admiration and gratitude is reciprocated. I just would assure all of our medical patients, my wife is a medical patient, so you have a strong advocate and voice with me. And I can just tell you over 10,000 people came to our events. Over 40,000 people weighed in and tens of thousands more on social media. Our medical program is universally loved. I just hope all your your readers and everyone in that space understand that.
DM:
I think they do. And I'm very glad to hear you say that, sir.
JF:
Well, please, if you take nothing else from our time together, please communicate that. No one is clamoring to change this or dismantle this or anything of the kind. I think we did a great job in learning from other states, and we certainly would with any recreational program that would emerge.
DM:
Excellent to hear. Thank you very much for your time Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman.
JF:
Okay. My pleasure. Take care.
DM:
What I mainly want to talk about is what happens to our medical program if and when adult use becomes legal.
JF:
I heard from people in all 67 counties that our medical program is love universally. If there was one significant issue that kept coming up over and over and over again, is the expense. And it's not the expense per say, it’s the fact that it's not covered by insurance. It's not covered by insurance because of another universal theme that emerged - and that is that it’s a schedule one substance, which, of course means that it has no medical value, which of course, is ridiculous. So the medical program, I can't imagine, would be in any jeopardy or danger. In fact, everybody wants to preserve two separate systems - the medical and the recreational aspect because it has very specific and important uses. Medically, my wife is a cardholder, so this idea that it would necessarily change anything - I don't think it's something that anyone would need to be concerned of.
DM:
Well, I think some of the concern comes from watching what's happened in other states. I haven't been to California recently, but I understand that the medical program is virtually non existent now with the popularity of the adult use.
JF:
I don't traffic in anecdotes. I mean, it's research that would be conducted if we get to the point where we go recreationally, legally and we created a superb medical program in Pennsylvania. If the day comes, I believe the Legislature would craft a superior recreational program as well, too. So no one wants to see it go away. These anecdotes that just live on social media - they're just not true, and concerns are premature and just aren’t backed up by evidence.
DM:
Are you surprised by the popularity of the medical program?
JF:
Not at all. But it certainly has done a great deal to change the hearts and minds of those individuals that previously would have thought marijuana is a more dangerous substance or it was just for stoners or whatever. Now, Pennsylvania is in a place where those that support marijuana prohibition, recreationally is true minority viewpoint, and it used to be the stereotype was it's just a bunch of stoners that want this and it's like, no, that's not it. It’s people from across all socioeconomic classes and ethnic groups - everybody sees this as a net positive. Medical marijuana went from a controversial proposition to a universally loved proposition in what, two years?
DM:
Yeah, less than two years. But it seems like you've been in office forever, but you actually only took office in January of this year.
JF:
Yeah, I’ve been Lieutenant Governor since January 15. So, in getting out there and talking to people in all of these counties that many people have never even been to, or heard of in some cases, it's a very distinct picture of what people think about in Pennsylvania. Some folks say, ‘Oh, we'll put it on a ballot.’ It's like, well, that's not constitutional in Pennsylvania. So, the next best thing is to go out and do what we did.
DM:
What do you think of the chances of adult use being passed this year?
JF:
Well, I mean, it's always a challenging environment because people need to remember this is a bipartisan solution. Anything in Pennsylvania has to have bipartisan sign on. It was medical cannabis and it would be the same with Recreational. The public rhetoric often doesn't match up with private. It’s something that Governor Wolf and I believe in strongly. It's a constructive conversation to have because a lot did emerge that is super majority stuff, and that is decriminalization, that is expungement that is, removing this ridiculous classification as a schedule one substance.
DM:
There’s only so much you can do at the state level and it seems like you're doing a great job with the social aspects with getting pardons for people.
JF:
Yeah, and pardons - It is a process that exists, but with some refinement, some tweaking some other changes, we can aggregate and expedite these applications, and it's expungement for pardons, which isn’t, of course, sufficient. The governor and I would also love to see legislation, but in the absence of that, or until that occurs, we have this mechanism and we plan on utilizing it.
DM:
Is there anything possibly built into getting some of these people out of prisons and allowing them to work within the industry?
JF:
Yeah, apply. Apply for a pardon. That's the answer - applying for the pardon
DM:
Okay. Any thoughts on protecting the medical program, such as it is?
JF:
I think that, again, people are entitled to their own concerns, but I know there's a great deal of pride on the Republican side for their medical program. It was an example of ‘they stepped outside their comfort zone,’ and they did the right thing, and it's been a tremendous success. No one wants to dismantle that. I didn’t meet anyone, really, that was like, ‘Oh, lay it all down and just make it a cannabis free-for-all.’ No one said that. This other ridiculous notion that legal implies or means harmless. Well, of course, it has an effect if it didn't have an affect, people would smoke their lawn clippings. It belongs in a basket of goods, like alcohol and tobacco. Then the tax is regulated and distribution is controlled. So, the same holds true. But medically, it's like you have Aspirin or Tylenol or Advil or whatever, and then you also have prescriptions. It's not like, ‘Oh, whoa, you know if this goes recreational, we won't need medical anymore. Like why? What do you know? How do you know? It's an evolving space. We're figuring it out after it beating a prohibition of this substance, and guess what? CBD became legal, and did the world spin off its axis? You know? Did the medical program shit the bed? No, none of this happens. So, everyone just needs to understand that the Pennsylvania Republican Legislature is very thoughtful body where there is partisan disagreement, but everyone loves the medical program. No one wants to dismantle the medical program. We do want to make the medical program more efficient. We do want to make being processed more affordable for Pennsylvanians and streamline the schedule one classification. That's why the governor and I called on our congressional delegation to remove that classification. I suspect if there's a change in administration that would naturally occur.
DM:
Well, you give great hope for those of us that worked very hard to help get this system in place and support this system, so I applaud your good work.
JF:
It's true credit. My wife's a cardholder. I can tell you it's provided significant benefit in her life. I'm telling you, if any Pennsylvania voter is concerned, the medical program, it has been widely and well-received, even in the most red counties - even among folks that you wouldn't normally think it would be. The preamble was, ‘Well, you know, I don't support it recreationally, but medically, that's different.’ So, it’s like, even those that aren't ready for it recreationally, for whatever reason, love it medically and Pennsylvania’s medical program patients and others don't have anything that I can see or have heard to warrant those fears as they might see in their mind. I'm not worried about another state's experience because it's not like this is going to happen overnight. It would be a process of finding out best practices - what has worked, what hasn’t - Because I know with good reason, our Republican colleagues that helped make this a reality take a lot of pride in the medical program, justifiably and understandably so, and no one's clamoring to get away with it.
DM:
Well, Pennsylvania, I think, did a remarkable job - the legislators and the regulators - did a remarkable job of doing what has worked well in other states and not repeating the mistakes of other states.
JF:
Exactly. If somebody says, ‘Well, what about California? Well, we'll learn from California. We'll learn from Colorado. Will learn from ‘fill in the blank,’ because it's going to be, if it does happen, it will be a very deliberate process. Let me tell you, recreational cannabis is already happening right now in Pennsylvania on the black market, so why wouldn't we want it growing in Pennsylvania Farms, creating Pennsylvania jobs, and creating Pennsylvania tax revenue, and have it work hand in glove with our medical program?
DM:
It seems logical to me.
JF:
Only the extreme fringe has ever called for like a cannabis free-for-all. No one is collectively calling for that. This is going to have to be a bill that gets through the Legislature and certainly our friends, the ones that aren't there with this on recreational yet, aren’t going to say, ‘You know what? Let's just open the floodgates and destroy the nation's best medical cannabis program. It’s not gonna happen. We all want to have a constructive bipartisan conversation on this, and I'm grateful that for the governor's leadership and everyone loves our medical cannabis program.
DM:
Well, that you're speaking truth right there, my friend. Everyone does love our program. We’ve got quadruple the number of patients of Illinois, which is a state about the same size and we did that in less than a year. While they’re still at 4 or 5 years now and counting.
JF:
I heard it called the Gold Standard nationwide. Pennsylvanians should take a lot of pride in that. The one big concern that I had was people being able to afford it. It's like, ‘My God, I need this.’ And I agree with them. I know how much it costs, because my wife was a cardholder, and that is a schedule one classification issue. If we made it as affordable as these terrible pain pills, that would change the game overnight. And that's part of what the governor has called for, is changing that classification.
DM:
Well, we applaud your work and I think you've got a very clear vision of how good our program is and I applaud you for that as well.
JF:
The admiration and gratitude is reciprocated. I just would assure all of our medical patients, my wife is a medical patient, so you have a strong advocate and voice with me. And I can just tell you over 10,000 people came to our events. Over 40,000 people weighed in and tens of thousands more on social media. Our medical program is universally loved. I just hope all your your readers and everyone in that space understand that.
DM:
I think they do. And I'm very glad to hear you say that, sir.
JF:
Well, please, if you take nothing else from our time together, please communicate that. No one is clamoring to change this or dismantle this or anything of the kind. I think we did a great job in learning from other states, and we certainly would with any recreational program that would emerge.
DM:
Excellent to hear. Thank you very much for your time Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman.
JF:
Okay. My pleasure. Take care.
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